For The Sake Of Argument: Playoffs
As you know, 'concise' isn't exactly in my vocabulary. So, we're pulling a Simmons and doing this in two parts. Second one will post after lunch- more Friday work avoidance!!
For the record, I'm not a proponent of playoffs. I actually liked the way things used to be with conference bowl tie-ins and such; arguing about who was #1 back in the day was a part of the enjoyment of the game, in my opinion.
But, since you asked me, if we were going to have a playoff this is what it should look like. Unlike some people, I'm not going to tell you what won't work- I'm taking a flier on what would ooze awesomeness. Caution is advised; some items may shift during the duration of this posting.
A lot of this is based on the bowl history series I did back on the old site. It might not be a bad idea to give it a look-see if you haven't already:
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Bowl Crap: The history of the modern bowl phenomenon and the "national championship" issue.
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Bowling for Dollars: The economic realities of the bowls; who benefits from these games?
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Bowl Movement: What does it mean to be the "champion"? How is this determined? Is it important?
For those of you who didn't want to tear a tendon in your clicking finger, let me sum up the relevant parts for this discussion: The old bowl system (PreCS) was flawed in it's ability to create a national champion, since it didn't exist for that purpose. The original purpose was money; tourism, money for sponsors, etc. It will be impossible to lose this system and start from scratch because of the "tradition", the money, and the fact that the NCAA has been told in federal court that they cannot legislate post-season activity.
So- on to the philosophical guidelines and overarching principals.
We have to keep money in mind; both for the sponsors and for the institutions. As such, a lengthy playoff won't work- most schools don't have the resources for a long post season like they do at other levels of NCAA Football, and the fans (true fans, not rich boosters or hangers on like you see at the Super Bowl) don't have the funds for travel to multiple sites.
Second, we need to keep the bowls around and use them as best as possible. They do have great tradition, and (as a mid-western guy) provide ideal vacation spots in January. But, we should also seek to remove the home field advantages that occur, as best as possible. This means that, while the bowls would still be an important part of this discussion, conference ties would need to be dissolves (and yes, I'm looking at you Pasadena).
I’ll see Rob’s great idea and raise it. A third major change would be the end of the pre-season poll. Other people have said this much better than I could (Heisenberg principal? Wow...), and even point out that the BCS numbers use the Harris poll which does not release rankings until late September, after teams have actually played. Pre-season AP polling impacts national opinion, and takes away from the "win it on the field" idea that a playoff would allegedly correct.
Fourth major change: schools would need to go back to only playing 11 games a season. Again, this hits the pocketbook; most institutions have used the extra games to schedule cupcakes at home for the ticket revenue (which is funny when it backfires). This would help address one of the major criticisms of playoffs- the season would run too long. Wiht 11 reScheduling changes should also be made to ensure that seasons start and end at the same time, and that schools only have one bye week a year (unlike some folks).To be honest, I think that this recommendation would be the one that most programs would balk at; especially since it hits every program equally.
Final change: Conferences. There would need to be six 12 team conferences, meaning that the Big T1e1n, Big East, and Pac-10 would need to add members. These could chose to do so from the smaller conferences (WAC, Conference USA, etc.) around them. As a corollary, major independents would need to join a conference. While this would kill Notre Dame (who would finish in the middle of the Big 10 most years), it would level the playing field and give us a chance to compare similar schedules. These conferences would need to add a championship game as well; if that means scheduling like the Big 12 and SEC does (east/west, north/south), so be it.
Yes, I know that this screws with tradition and schedules that are set for 20 years- you wanted me to be creative; here you go. Talonk gets even more creative- I'm trying to minimize a huge switcheroo.
The Big 12, SEC, and ACC are already good, so here's how we could tweak the PAC 10, the Big T1e1n, and the Big lEast.
To me, the PAC 12 is easy: Add BYU and Utah, and you've got two really good divisions:
Clouds- Washington, Washington State, Oregon, Oregon State, BYU, Utah
Sun- Southern Cal, UCLA, Cal, Stanford, Arizona, Arizona State
The Big T1e2n gets a bit more complicated: Ntre Ame is the logical addition, but there are problems. The Irish are not interested in joining a conference, and would never win the Big Ten. Just being honest. Second, all Big Ten teams are part of the Association of American Universities; an elite group of research institutions. For the record, the Big Ten is the only conference to have all of its members be a part of this group. So, no Notre Dame.
With all the expansion discussion coming out of the winter meetings, I continued to hear two schools mentioned: Texas and Missouri. To be honest, I also heard about Nebraska, but I’m not having them in the same conference as the Buckeyes, if only for the sake of my marriage. I’ve also heard about UConn, but don’t think their basketball first program would work well in this football first (basketball close second) conference.
While Texas would be an amazing addition, I just don’t see them leaving the Big 12 and their dominance. Plus, there are rivalries with Oklahoma and aTm to be considered. Missouri has a better case (and a good website), as well as a regional rivalry with Iowa and Illinois. If either team jumps ship, look to see TCU added to the Big 12 and a shuffle of sorts (wouldn’t it be great to have Oklahoma and Nebraska play every year again?).
Personally, I think the answer may lie to our east at the University of Pittsburgh. They help create a natural rival for Penn State, they are an AAU school, and there’s enough tradition in their program to let them stand tall with the rest of the conference. Just for giggles and the purposes of this discussion, let’s welcome the Panthers into the fold.
So, what would our divisions look like? For the sake of rivalries and splitting up the traditional powers, let's go with this:
Hayes- Indiana, Purdue, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Iowa
Paterno- Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois, Northwestern, Penn State, Pittsburgh
It looks a little heavy on the one side with Mich1gAAn, Ohio State, and Iowa; but how is that different than the SEC East (Florida, Georgia, and Tennessee) or Big 12 South (Texas, Oklahoma, and TTU if they're good again)? Remember, every team has it's ups and downs- Nebraska was supposed to dominate the Big 12 North, yet they struggled under poor coaching (sounds familiar) until recently.
The Big lEast is even more confusing, mostly because I don't care. They need to add five teams to replace Pitt and get to 12, so let's look at their basketball conference to add Notre Dame (no AAU requirements for the Big lEast). Adding Army and Navy would make ND’s schedule easier to explain, and let’s look to Conference USA to add Marshall and East Carolina into the mix. Their divisions would be:
Rivers- WVa, Marshall, Syracuse, UConn, Cincinnati, Louisville
Oceans- Notre Dame, South Florida, Army, Navy, Rutgers, ECU
And yes, I know that South Bend isn't near an ocean. You've got better names, let me know and I'll change it- I wanted to allow them to play the service academies, and keep the conferences relatively balanced.
So that's what we've got so far. After lunch, we'll talk about the specifics of a year end playoff, and walk through how this would have played out for the last three seasons.
1 recs |
22 comments
Comments
this was a good read.
it’s unrealistic, but still a lot of fun to think about these kinds of things. i’d rather see boise state in the clouds than BYU. but that’s just me :)
i remember talonk’s article and i think i’m more in favor of 10 teams per conference than 12, but i guess it’s not a huge difference. looking forward to your playoff scenarios.
Sonny my pitched my wild
by GrooveLeg on Jan 22, 2010 9:42 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Nice work
I love the time spent and the detail here, and I’m impressed that the research institution aspect was brought up. Most people try to do these reorder scenarios without taking “real world” factors into consideration. I like the addition of Pitt, but Penn State has already said they would leave if that happened.
Definitely agree with Texas not leaving the Big 12, it would be suicide to enter a conference where the chances of winning would drop drastically.
I also like the additions of BYU and Utah in the Pac 10, I’m glad you didn’t throw Boise in there. Another thing people fail to see is just how bad an academic institution Boise State is, the Pac 10 would laugh at them.
I agree the Big East is annoying, in fact if it wasn’t for their basketball powerhouses they’d be out of the BCS brotherhood
by robharley on Jan 22, 2010 11:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Didn't know that
about Penn State… Wonder what they’re afraid of?
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 22, 2010 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would guess that they are most afraid of...
having more than one winning season a decade…..
Out of Hound since 2008
by BuckeyeSki on Jan 22, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That must be it...
What else would make Joe Pa poop his pants in terror?
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 22, 2010 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
activiaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
because I couldn't go for 3...
by SouthBayBuckeye on Jan 22, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm actually
not so sure that Texas wouldn’t jump ship on the Big 12. The article posted here comments that the boost in money for Texas would be a major draw. Also, they’re not an AAU school, but their academics are good enough that we can add them anyway and make them an AAU school as an incentive, boosting their academics in the process. Plus, while Texas would be playing a substantially tougher schedule, who wouldn’t want to watch OSU v. Texas, Texas v. Penn State, Wisconsin v. Texas on a regular basis? Talk about a big money boost to Big Ten TV appearances!
Why would you ever want to run the prevent defense? It's a defense specifically designed to prevent the field goal by giving them a touchdown!
by Eric at the BBC on Jan 22, 2010 12:25 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Too long to travel
The football and basketball programs could potentially afford the travel (football no problem) but it would be a huge cost on the remaining couple dozen sports UT has that would need to fly for a game/match/meet.
Also, though UT may not be an AAU school, they have one quite outstanding academic standing and would be (and should be) insulted at the “boosting their academics in the process”.
Word.
by NorCal Buckeye on Jan 22, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
the travel is a bit much, but it should be made up for by the revenue bonus earned for having them in the conference.
Also, it’s not an insult to say that becoming an AAU school would be a boost to their academics. They’re a fantastic academic program, an addition like AAU would only serve to make them better.
Why would you ever want to run the prevent defense? It's a defense specifically designed to prevent the field goal by giving them a touchdown!
by Eric at the BBC on Jan 22, 2010 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Conference RE-alignment
As I said in my post yesterday on the last playoff thread, it sounds all well-and-good to have a theory as to how a playoff should proceed and how conferences should be realigned. But think about this: the Big Ten has been lazily trying to expand to 12 for 20 years. They don’t want to go to 12 unless that 12th team is really outstanding both academically (the Big Ten will be hard-pressed to find another top-25 public school to add to its repertoire of 7) and as a market for the BTN. If they’re about to settle for Mizzou, c’mon – that means it’s pretty slim pickin’s out there.
So, we know that realigning one conference to their liking is tough enough. Realigning all the conferences is so beyond the realm of possibilities, that it’s a waste of time even speculating about it. It’s nice on paper, but for every suggestion like this one, there are an infinite # of similar suggestions, none of which are more valid than the other, none of which are realistically being considered by any conference at the time being.
Go back to an 11 game season? And give up that revenue? Mid-range programs like Indiana, Purdue, MSU…they like having that extra game because of the $$$ it provides for the other sports. Unless the playoff would be able to compensate each team for the loss of revenue made in that 1 game – sorry, it just won’t fly.
by Bucksfan on Jan 22, 2010 1:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
you make good points- what’s your solution?
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 22, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't get me wrong...
Ultimately, if it comes down to instituting a playoff, I think what you post is a valid direction and I probably couldn’t come up with anything much better. Absolutely conferences need to standardize how things are done (conference championships, eliminate bowl tie-ins, shrink schedule, # of teams). It’s simply my opinion that I don’t think it’s feasible without some sort of financial pressure, forced legislation, and/or new leadership amongst the conferences and university administrations that are ready to take radical steps. Case-in-point, the Pac-10 just hired a new commissioner…who’s basically just like Tom Hanson in terms of maintaining the bowl structure, only a lot younger. The Rose Bowl inducted Tom Hanson into their hall of fame just this past season, and the Ducks fans groaned.
But that’s the kind of establishment we’re dealing with. Some facets are just around 100 years old. Changing that is a tangled web of sh*t. And really, I’m just not sure it is as sh*tty as we make it out to be.
by Bucksfan on Jan 22, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup...
I agree. And am a bit nostalgic, to be honest.
I actually liked the way things used to be with conference bowl tie-ins and such; arguing about who was #1 back in the day was a part of the enjoyment of the game, in my opinion.
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 22, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Another thought
No one thought the ACC/SEC/Big 12 would come to be until the SWC and the Big East changed due to money.
Could there be a money rationale for making this move that would encourage it?
And- we’ve only been playing 12 games for a couple of years now… I think the universities could figure out ways around it. An idea (which would work across the board); how about not paying college football coaches 3 and 4 and 5 million a year, and moving that savings into the other programs?
Not that they aren’t worth it- Tress should make as much as Stoops and Saban- but it seems like a place where the bigger schools could make the cuts you’re talking about.
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 22, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
unfortunately, the bigger schools OSU, Texas, Florida are not the problem, They could absorb the loss of one game a season fairly well. It is the lower BCS and non-BCS programs that would really miss that extra payday since typically most of them rake in close to a $1M for each trip.
One example is San Jose St. As a California state school ,their budget is totally underfunded. In order to supplement their income they are scheduled to play at Alabama, Wisconsin and Utah next season just to try and balance some budget deficits. Even if they win half of their conference games they have no shot at a bowl game with that OOC schedule. I am sure there are many other examples like this.
by talonk on Jan 22, 2010 3:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But...
Bowls aren’t always good things: they often end up costing a school way more than they make.
They help with the additional practice time and the “exposure”; are there ways to give those things (expanded spring ball?) in other fashions?
As you know, I’m not a proponent of the “Everybody gets to go to a bowl game” mentality that has take over college sports.
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 22, 2010 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is spot on.
I’m a Coug (Washington State), but attended tOSU my freshman year, which is why I’m here. WSU has the smallest budget in the Pac10, and with the economic downturn is even leaner than usual. We’re in the middle of raising money for a stadium expansion that will take our stadium from about 36k to about 40k, but will DOUBLE the revenue generated at each home game. Take away a home game, and we’re right back where we started.
We’re a BCS team that even during the early 2000s when we were making noise (that’s when the WSU flag at Gameday started) had to take “bodybag” games for a paycheck.
I think Buckeye fans (or fans of any of the most successful football schools) don’t realize the issues marginal teams have budget-wise if we start cutting games to make room for playoffs.
by TiltingRight on Jan 22, 2010 11:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This gets nitpicky, but the Pac10 thing with Utah and BYU wouldn't fly.
Every school in the Pac10 are Tier 1 research institutions, and the Presidents of the Universities have made it clear they wouldn’t take a school in that didn’t meet that threshold. BYU doesn’t, Boise State doesn’t, UNLV doesn’t. Utah, Nevada, Hawaii, New Mexico would.
Also, the Pac10 is one of the best conferences at sharing revenue, so any expansion would have to include a bigger TV paycheck. Pac10 games are already on the airwaves in Salt Lake City, Reno, and Honolulu. There’d be no bump in revenue expanding in any of those areas. New Mexico doesn’t have the population. In fact, the “Pacific” Ten would have to push its footprint all the way to Colorado, Kansas or Nebraska before it starts to make sense, and I don’t know that any of them would be willing to bow out of the Big XII.
Finally, every school in the Pac10 raids CA for a large number of their recruits. Right now, the NW schools make 2 trips per year into CA-one in the bay area, one in SoCal. The conference alignment you have would mean all of the NW schools would be limited in the number of trips into CA to play, and could conceivably have only one trip every other year into CA, making it harder to recruit there. None of the NW schools are going to go for it.
by TiltingRight on Jan 22, 2010 10:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You're probably right...
Who would you suggest? ESPN said Utah and Boise State; not much better given your comments.
What about Air Force and CSU?
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 22, 2010 10:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At this point, there's no discussion on it at all.
And I think the only way there would be is if the Big Ten becomes a REAL superconference and takes, say, Pitt, Mizzou, and Kansas to go to 14. That might leave Colorado looking.
Then I think Utah and Colorado could come in, and at least not lose the conference money per school, but I still don’t know how the divisions work out as no NW school will allow themselves to be excluded from CA.
So I’m thinking that the short answer is that the Pac10 will remain the Pac10 unless there’s a major conference realignment elsewhere leaving top tier schools looking for a home.
by TiltingRight on Jan 22, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
I agree… I think that even the Big T1e1n expansion talk is just that, talk.
There’s really no incentive for any change- sure the TCUs and Boise States can complain about being left out, but the money is/was/will be with the bigger conferences. And money,as we know, drives this conversation.
Glad to have you a part of tBBC- Spent six years in Seattle, and grew to appreciate the Northwest… might even say I’d rather be there than LA.
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 22, 2010 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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