For The Sake Of Argument: Playoff/BCS Counterpoint

After a great week of dialogue regarding the NCAA football postseason, Rob, Talonk and I wanted to take one final shot at each others' ideas. Since this was my idea, I'll go first:
Rob's position was that playoffs would minimize the regular season and would thus take away from much of the great debate that is a huge part of the fan experience. He also posits that the BCS is fine, and would be perfect with only a few tweaks.
Of course, I've got questions:
- One of the major criticisms with the current system is that "the best teams" don't get to prove it on the field. You may get an undefeated team ranked higher at the end of the year than a team with a couple of losses against significantly superior competition. As such, the current system seems to punish teams for playing (and possibly losing) early games against strong out of conference opposition. How would you suggest correcting the "strength of schedule" issue?
- During the BCS years, we've seen one team play for the championship who even play for their conference championship (Nebraska 2001) and another (Oklahoma 2009) who tied for their divisional lead but played for the national championship due to computers and not on the field performance. In 2007, the top six teams ended up with two losses each, while one loss teams were ranked behind them at the end of the year (Kansas/Hawaii). Last year and this year the season ended with two undefeated teams who were neither ranked number one nor given the opportunity to play for the title. How do you justify this to fans whose teams ended the year with better records? Without sounding like this guy, I mean...
- Really? The current system gives Notre Dame money even if they don't play and an automatic bid for finishing eighth... you think that's a good thing?
- Finally, in your magnum opus regarding BCS tweaks you propose that game payouts match the rankings. Wouldn't this further penalize the smaller schools who usually start the season ranked lower and won't ever reach a higher game no matter their on the field success? Especially since we know that bowls themselves are often money pits for Universities...

Talonk had a great idea for a hybrid solution that gives us sixteen team playoff- all eleven Division 1A (ok, ok- FBS) conference champions would make the playoffs along with 5 "wildcards". Rank and seed them, and play it out using some of the current bowls in addition to giving higher seeds home field for the first two rounds. In addition, teams that lose in the first round would still be eligible for one of the other bijillion bowls out there.
Thoughts:
- For teams that play in conferences with championship games (ACC/SEC/Big 12), they are already playing 13 games in a season. If one of these teams goes to the championship game, they'd play five more for a total of twenty. How would you work to minimize any impact on academics? Would this settle the debate of being the "best" or just "the last team standing"?
- Along those lines- a team from a conference without a championship game who loses in the first round of the playoffs will have played 14 games total (12 in season, one playoff, one bowl). For teams who don't make the playoffs this total is 13. How would you sell these inequities to conference commissioners?
- Many people hold that UW's success against Southern Cal was due to Ohio State's physical game against the Trojans the week before- Matt Barkley was out, and Taylor Mays got the Boom lowered on him and was a shadow of himself the rest of the season. I asked earlier about the "last team standing" idea, let me go one step further- Do you really believe that the Sun Belt champion deserves an opportunity (even as a lower ranked team) to play against the number one or number two team in the nation, given the potential for a blowout and injury issues?
- While having higher seeds host the first two rounds helps with travel issues, it also creates the possibility of continuing the south/west home field advantage issue that exists with the current bowls. Any way to work around that? Also, given that you're suggesting that small school champions would be lower seeds and need to travel, how do you propose helping programs who may already have budget issues finance up to five travel experiences at the end of the season?
That's all I've got... I'm looking forward to your responses and queries regarding what I proposed... as well as hearing some other ideas from the folks in our comments section.
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I do enjoy your questions but allow me to add some clarity…
Let me preface this by saying I think that #1 and #4 are basically the same question and would be solved with a simple removal of the Coaches’ Poll. The Coaches’ Poll comes out in the preseason, compared to the Harris Poll coming out after the fifth week.
Therefore to answer #1, the computer polls already take into account strength of schedule on a massive scale. The problem lies within predetermined values placed on teams b/c of who they are (logo on jersey). Case and point this season, I think TCU had a legitimate gripe considering Texas played absolutely nobody other than Oklahoma and Nebraska. But since Texas started higher in the Coaches’ Poll and has the tradition factor they get the nod. Removing the Coaches’ Poll and replacing it with another Harris type poll or even another computer poll would eliminate biases and make the playing field way more even.
Now to answer #4, removing the Coaches’ Poll removes the idea that teams “start” at a certain point. Rankings would actually MATTER at this point, given that they’d be coming out six weeks into the season. Teams have now had time to show who they are and their opponents have too. This gives a great feel for just how good their schedules are and how good each team is at this point. Smaller schools have the same chance to prove themselves as any other at this point. My main argument when looking to make payouts equal to rankings was Ball State in 2008. They finished #22 in the nation which should’ve put them in the Gator Bowl to collect $2.5M. Instead they were shoved in the GMAC bowl against unranked Tulsa to grab only $750K!! Yes I know they lost but that’s besides the point. They should be rewarded for their work on the field, if they’re good enough to finish 12-1 and get ranked #22 then they should be place in the appropriate game.
On to your #3 question about Notre Dame, of course I hate the fact that there’s a Notre Dame rule in the BCS (4. Notre Dame will have an automatic berth if it is in the top eight of the final BCS Standings.). Which is why my #1 change would be to make sure every team joins a conference. The playing field needs to be leveled so at least the foundation of the system is the same, and that each team is judged on the same criteria. Notre Dame join the Big East already, geez!
And now for your main question, how do I justify selecting certain teams over others? (without sounding like an idiot). The fact is that for teams like Boise State, TCU, Utah, and Cincinnati they have to go undefeated just to be CONSIDERED in the conversation. That’s all they’ve earned at that point. Their schedules are usually so horrendous that going undefeated is their only option. That’s how I justify it! No one is guaranteed anything, having a good regular season allows EVERY team the opportunity to stand at college football’s pearly gates and get judged. There are far more factors than just wins and losses. Great you went undefeated Boise, who’d you play? The Broncos are favored in 98% of their games every season. Put Ohio State, Alabama, etc in that schedule and they’d breeze through it. I justify it the same way the playoff lovers would justify it to the last man out of the playoff, “sorry, someone had to be left out (shrug).” People forget that these teams are judged on criteria it isn’t just random, going undefeated against crappy opponents is not equal to losing one game in a tough, relentless schedule.
Fact remains there’s no solution that allows any team to play EVERY other team. Thus we’ll NEVER truly know who the best is. At the end of the day and team can win on any given saturday, but only the best can do it consistently. So why give Cinderella a shot at the title when we already know it’s an unrealistic chance? Seems like a waste of time and energy to give some mediocre team the opportunity to rise up.
A playoff is like The Bachelor to me!! It’s an unrealistic environment! Girls get to go on all these cool dates and get put in these crazy romantic settings, of course they’ll think they’re in love. And then after the show when it comes to “real” life they realize they’re not right for each other. In a playoff of course teams will get up and get hot in a pressure filled situation. They think they have a chance if they can just scheme their opponent up enough. But when it comes down to the regular season (‘real" life) they’re just mediocre and can’t get it done when it really counts.
by robharley on Jan 25, 2010 12:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wait...
A playoff is like The Bachelor to me!! It’s an unrealistic environment! Girls get to go on all these cool dates and get put in these crazy romantic settings, of course they’ll think they’re in love. And then after the show when it comes to "real" life they realize they’re not right for each other.
Are you telling me that if the Bachelor wanted you to be the guy for a season, you wouldn’t do it?
Just asking…
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 25, 2010 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
for the wrong reasons, yes
i would go on it for the vacations
by robharley on Jan 25, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fact remains there’s no solution that allows any team to play EVERY other team. Thus we’ll NEVER truly know who the best is. At the end of the day and team can win on any given saturday, but only the best can do it consistently. So why give Cinderella a shot at the title when we already know it’s an unrealistic chance? Seems like a waste of time and energy to give some mediocre team the opportunity to rise up.
And yet, the Super Bowl is still the most watched sporting event that doesn’t involve soccer… did the Saints and Colts play everyone? However will we know that they’re truly the best??
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 25, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what were the Saints and Colts ranked?
both were #1 seeds, so why not just pit them against one another right after the season. If the cream rises to the top in a playoff anyway then why go through the stupid charade of seeing if a 10-6 worthless Giants squad can get lucky?
by robharley on Jan 25, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Stop hating on the G-Men Rob Harley
Out of Hound since 2008
by BuckeyeSki on Jan 25, 2010 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
First off, I wanted to thank Mail for allowing me to present my ideas here. I am pretty sure that my idea is one of a million out there and therefore has little shot of ever being achieved. But I do feel it is the most fair way to institute a playoff in my opinion.
Before I answer, I will note that due to my work schedule this week, I will be unable to critique yours or Rob’s posts. Although I have commented on some of Rob’s ideas in my post already, and did comment on yours as well Mail.
And on to the responses, I will be breaking them into separate ones below …..
by talonk on Jan 25, 2010 1:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
bahhh Mail should be Mali … twice … sheesh
by talonk on Jan 25, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No worries...
As long as you don’t go “laim”, I’m good with it. :)
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 25, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For teams that play in conferences with championship games (ACC/SEC/Big 12), they are already playing 13 games in a season. If one of these teams goes to the championship game, they’d play five more for a total of twenty. How would you work to minimize any impact on academics? Would this settle the debate of being the “best” or just “the last team standing”?
This math is incorrect. All FBS schools have 12 games. Teams that travel to Hawaii are also allotted a 13th game. So if a team that plays in a conference of 12 or more, scheduled at Hawaii and played in their conference championship game, they would have played in 14 games. If they survived to the final, they would play 18 games, not 20. And this would only be for one school. The odds of the opponent playing in the Championship game also playing at Hawaii and in a conference championship game are very miniscule.
Most likely, the total games a team could play would be 16 or 17 (if they are in a conference with 12 teams). The eight teams that played in the first round and lost, would be playing one additional game than previously. And the teams that play in Round 2, would only be playing an additional 2 games (round one, round two, and then BCS bowl vs just a bowl game).
In regards to academics, my plan has these games being played every other week in December, not weekly, to allow time for finals. Since most schools don’t resume until after the first of the year, the only teams affected by the new semester/quarter would be the two teams that made the final. Since most of these schools are already in practice for all of December anyways, I think this point is moot.
One last point, any additional practice for these schools is in actuality invaluable for them for the following season as well.
by talonk on Jan 25, 2010 1:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well
Let me run at this again:
12 games
1 conference championship game
1 first round game (sweet 16)
1 second round game (great 8)
1 third round game (final four)
1 fourth round game (final)
-——————-
17 games. I’m an idiot. (18 with a trip to the islands)
Anyone good with taxes?
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 25, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Along those lines- a team from a conference without a championship game who loses in the first round of the playoffs will have played 14 games total (12 in season, one playoff, one bowl). For teams who don’t make the playoffs this total is 13. How would you sell these inequities to conference commissioners?
Am not sure why this makes a difference, extra games are good for both the school and conference. My best guess is that the money associated with the playoffs (meaning extra revenue from the TV deals) would be divided among the conferences in the playoffs. The teams that acquire the home games (seeds 1-8 in first, and 1-4 in second) would get to keep most of the income generated locally (with a payout to the visiting team of course). If the conferences balked, the revenue (or a percentage) generated by the home games could go to the conference coffers as well
by talonk on Jan 25, 2010 1:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Many people hold that UW’s success against Southern Cal was due to Ohio State’s physical game against the Trojans the week before- Matt Barkley was out, and Taylor Mays got the Boom lowered on him and was a shadow of himself the rest of the season. I asked earlier about the “last team standing” idea, let me go one step further- Do you really believe that the Sun Belt champion deserves an opportunity (even as a lower ranked team) to play against the number one or number two team in the nation, given the potential for a blowout and injury issues?
As I have discussed before, with the scheduling inequities, how do we know that a 10-2 Central Michigan, a 11-1 Troy, or a 10-2 Houston aren’t just as deserving as a 12-1 Florida? Since most of the non-BCS schools have to schedule tougher OOC teams (for paydays), they will most likely have more losses than BCS schools. Yes, most likely these schools will be a one and done, but there is no fairer way of proving that than by on the field, rather than just by deciding what conference you play in.
Up until 3-4 years ago, most pundits/fans felt that Boise St, Utah, TCU could not play with the BCS schools, I believe that in recent years, this has proven out that they can. In the current system, when Houston wins their conference, at best they get to show their stuff against a mid-tier BCS (#4-5) team in their bowl game. As a reward to their season, why shouldn’t they get to travel to Penn St, USC, etc and play a top notch school? I am willing to bet if you polled some of the players, a lot of them would rather play a meaningful game in the Horseshoe, Swamp, etc, than a meaningless game against Minnesota in Detroit to show their worth.
by talonk on Jan 25, 2010 1:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
While having higher seeds host the first two rounds helps with travel issues, it also creates the possibility of continuing the south/west home field advantage issue that exists with the current bowls. Any way to work around that? Also, given that you’re suggesting that small school champions would be lower seeds and need to travel, how do you propose helping programs who may already have budget issues finance up to five travel experiences at the end of the season?
I actually this plays right into the BCS honchos’ favor and is something they’d rather do than neutral site games. More than likely, the top BCS schools will get a majority of the home games. As much as I’d rather see neutral sites, I don’t think it is economically feasible. Plus, if the majority games are at large BCS venues, more $$ is generated than if they play in Boise, TCU, etc. This is why I think this scenario is most likely.
As for the budget issues, that can be solved relatively easily. First, the teams traveling to the higher seed would get a percentage of the gate receipts. And secondly, if a playoff is instituted, the TV deals would need to get reworked. Some of the additional $$ from that deal could be allocated to assist teams traveling in first 2 rounds.
by talonk on Jan 25, 2010 1:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Never Happen
Talonk I admire your zeal but no shot they split gates. Not at a neutral site means not going to split. Do you really think, and would be happy with, Ohio St splitting gate receipts with Troy, Central Michigan or ECU?
The horseshoe packed to the brim with Scarlet and Grey and the Buckeyes are giving gate money to a school from Greenville, NC for a body bag slaughter that they could have played in week 1 for $300k?
ItsFELDER
by MichaelFelder on Jan 26, 2010 6:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great responses, talonk!
Thanks for bringing these insights to the table.
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 25, 2010 1:27 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
devil's advocate
Mali you really do play a lovely devil’s advocate if i may so
by robharley on Jan 25, 2010 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You can say so...
But you’re not getting a rose from me, lovely or not.
:)
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 25, 2010 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
new b-ball rankings are out.
no. 20 in AP, no. 24 in ESPN
Sonny my pitched my wild
by GrooveLeg on Jan 25, 2010 1:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Unapologetic BCS sympathizer
Not because i think its perfect, but because the idea of a playoff is so groin-grabbingly unrealistic.
Big Six athletes are already treated like pieces of meat that exist only for our amusement. Division I football is a big, big machine, and you think you could make it work because thats what they do at the lower levels? Not gonna happen.
Boise/TCU fans can gnash their teeth and tear their clothes all they want. Look what happened to Cincinnati (an allegedly stronger team than those two) at the hands of a team that was beaten handily.
The arguement that some teams dont get a chance is ridiculous. Stop playing in the same conference as St. Mary’s Cooking School for the Blind and we can talk.
Most of what the movement boils down to is more, more more more! We want more football! Billions of dollars are literally squeezed out of 20 year olds, more games are played in a year than ever before… and it isn’t enough! Look at basketball, lets have a 65 team playoff! Look at nascar, how bout they play every Saturday for nine months! Just stop.
Big, big machine…
GIVE ME A BLUE JACKETS TEAM WORTH ROOTING FOR
by joshjoshjosh on Jan 26, 2010 1:56 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Great points...
Especially re: the money that’s behind this (little of which is seen by the young adults involved).
That being said- Can I have your season tickets? :)
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 26, 2010 3:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m with joshjoshjosh on this one, and I love the use of the term “groin-grabbingly!” Hilarious.
Is it corrupt? Of course. But to suggest a playoff system would be any less-so is absurd. Who was the head of the NCAA Basketball Tournament selection committee last year? That would be Mike Slive – at the time, he was also the chairman of the BCS, and the SEC commissioner, who also was a big name in the negotiation of the $2 Billion deal with ESPN. If you remember, it was an all-time low for mid-tier conference team selections in that Tourney.
If the Rose Bowl was good enough for Woody, then it’s good enough for me.
by Bucksfan on Jan 26, 2010 4:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, so we have a BCS that's corrupt,
a playoff system which is corrupt, and the old bowl/polls system which was nothing more than a beauty-popularity contest. No way out, f*ck the whole thing.
Getting back to RobHarley’s tweaks, I’s love to see dropping coaches poll as well as any attempt at preseason rankings. Rob nailed it with his statement that no coach takes the time to evaluate other teams on a weekly basis, what were they thinking. The preseason poll generates bias, if for no other reason, than if a team gets awarded ‘pole position’ early, it’s got a leg up in the title rankings. As much as I’d like to see ND join a conference, unless there are some financial tremors, I doubt it will happen. They have the special BCS treatment, and a pretty sweet cashflow deal with NBC/Comcast/whoever. I think that ND is a ratings draw; fans will tune in each week hoping for the best, and folks like me may watch, hoping they get defrocked. So much for this morning’s rant.
by KenK on Jan 26, 2010 8:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I hate the pre-season polls.
But how are Athalon, Phil Steele, ESPN the landfill carrion, and SI going to sell if there’s no pre-season predictions.
Even if they’re not sanctioned (coaches poll, etc.) someone somewhere will start using these to determine things before the Harris poll comes out.
Then, the gripe will be “Wait! Texas State was #3 in the ESPN poll and didn’t lose a game… how does Harris put them at 35? Are you going to believe a computer or a real live person who’s seen them play”
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 26, 2010 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mali, I agree with your Athalon, etal., point because IMO it’s part of the hype machine. My god, this rankings (and recruitings) has grown into a self-perpetuating business, with breathless rankings… This is the annual kick-off to the cash-cow endgame of some teams being somehow selected to play in some bowls.
Argh, I need to start working on my golf game. On the bright side, signing day is a week away, so you get to change topics. Lucky you.
by KenK on Jan 26, 2010 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nope...
We’ll just start pining for the good ol days of the NIT, and griping about the automatic bids that crappy conferences get to the NCAA tournament. Hopefully Rob will be able to talk about how there shouldn’t be March Madness, and how the tournament spoils the joys of the game. :)
Same horse, different trail.
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 26, 2010 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
those poor athletes! what ever will they do to escape the choke-hold of the NCAA piggies who care not about competition and tradition but MONEY MONEY MONEY!!!!
no blue chip linebacker has ever said, “man… i’m sick of being treated like a piece of meat and playing on live national TV in a full stadium of screaming fans who worship me… this institution only wants me because i make them money!” no walk-on third-string special teams player has ever said that either, i’d imagine.
this is a bit of a negative view, don’t you think? you make it sound like nobody cares about the athletes and that the landscape of college sports is a series of barbaric gladiator matches fought to the death so we can fulfill some kind of money-fueled addiction.
anyway…
i too tend to err on the side of realism which is why i support a playoff with a smaller field (4 teams). and for me it has nothing to do with MOAR FOOTBALL!!!!!!!!!!!, it’s more to eliminate some of the unknowns that come with excluding teams worthy of playing for a title. i think it’s unrealistic to expect a 16-team field anytime soon, and i think it’s a pipe dream to realign the conferences (although it is fun to talk about).
Sonny my pitched my wild
by GrooveLeg on Jan 26, 2010 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Umm..
no blue chip linebacker has ever said, "man… i’m sick of being treated like a piece of meat and playing on live national TV in a full stadium of screaming fans who worship me… this institution only wants me because i make them money!" no walk-on third-string special teams player has ever said that either, i’d imagine.
Maurice Clarett begs to differ.
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 26, 2010 12:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
i don't think i recall maurice's reason for leaving the same way you do.
Sonny my pitched my wild
by GrooveLeg on Jan 26, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
We’ve got the same memories, no matter how many pharmaceuticals I ingest…
But, there was a lot of commentary from him, particularly before the Fiesta Bowl, regarding the fact that the University was making a ton of money and he wasn’t.
/done talking about the old Maurice.
Of course the conversation degenerated...
You were having it with a bunch of degenerates.
by MaliBuckeye at The BBC on Jan 26, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I remember that, now. Seems it was borderline indentured servitude.
by KenK on Jan 26, 2010 5:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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